It's a problem a lot of European countries seem to be having. Some are highly xenophobic from what I have been able to see. Not saying that you and/or the Netherlands are :sheep:, but it could lead to problems down the road if Europe doesn't come to grips with their immigration issues. I will readily admit, however, that the US is hardly innocent in this regard:p

yeah America is innocent..laughs:laugh:

I personally have nothing against Americans nor their culture. It's not that dramatic influence. Every nation takes their identity for something untouchable, and are very proud of who they are [I'm European, so I'm only talking for those around]. Maybe they're living a different lifestyle but will remain loyal to their own culture.
I just don't like US attitude in terms of politics. Messing where they shouldn't. Like now, building XBR in Czech republic and rocket base in Poland. And driving Russians crazy. Destabilizing the region. What for?
I can remember that I was quite happy when they rented our military airbase. Since I'm warlike, and had a free access, I really enjoyed watching Falcons and Warthogs so damn close. I can accept that.
But what's happening now is really too much!

We have a dictator that is a war monger & wants to create trouble.And by creatong trouble with Russia isnt a brite thing to do.And Russia is the only country that can stand toe to toe with us.It does sound like Im disrespecting my country & our culture, trust me Im not.Im just tired of the way our leaders are cusing trouble us & the rst of the world.It'd be nice if someother country would take over policing the world.Who ever said we*USA* had to police the actions that other countries???

Very true Goku. I'm afraid it is the tendency of states that have both military and economic might to feel obligated to 'fix' things to make others more like themselves. If it works for them, surely it would help others to be like them, right? Obviously no. I
hesitate using the Romans and British as examples, but they are good ones. Whether through religious, economic, cultural. political, or military means they sought to make the world more like themselves. They thought that since they had risen to such power, that it was both their responsibility and their right to teach the 'barbarians'. This is a gross oversimplification of course, but I think you see what I am getting at.

Like the Romans and British though, we are stretching ourselves too thin. I personally don;t see an American invasion as very likely, but it would be possible for our forces stretched across the globe to be picked off if there was enough discontent and hatred toward the US (not just terrorist cells, but with worldwide state backing) A long shot in the sense that I doubt those who are discontented would organize well enough, and our economic slide is more likely to see fewer military actions abroad as we simply won;t be able to afford what we are doing now.

To be honest though, I doubt whoever takes our place as 'world police' will be any better. Stability is not achieved through putting down a populace, it is achieved through across the board economic prosperity. Of course there are several things that go into that, including the economic system, available resources, arable land, terrain, etc. It is no mystery that the most prosperous countries in the world are in the midlatitudes, the best regions for farming. Also notice that most of the poorest countries are south of the equator. This is because there is far less land mass down there, and very few areas that have optimal farming land, outside of South Africa and Argentina. Most southern hemisphere land mass is close to the equator itself, a terrible place for farming, and as populations grow rapidly they are not able to feed themselves, among other things.

Other problems are that in order to make money, some states take away what little arable land they have to grow food in order to make 'cash crops' (coffee, sugar cane, etc.). This obviously leads to less food overall, and also the issue of political corruption, taking away proceeds and putting it in their own pockets. So they must import food. (in case you haven;t noticed I am mainly talking about Africa here, but I'll move on to other areas) The food is dropped off at the docks, but it is either left there to rot, or warlords loot it and use it as a bargaining chip over the local populations. Add onto that the fact that increased medicine availability has sent them rocketing into a semblance of the second stage of demographic transition, there are more people living past birth, and those are also reproducing rapidly due to old farm customs, and is far exceeding the death rate. This population explosion is another source of the unrest.

There are no clear cut solutions to those problems. We can't just make a plan and take action, nor is it even advisable to do so. In most cases they do not want ours, or anybody's help. Corruption is something that has to be fought from within. How they achieve economic stability is tricky as well. They could get better farming equipment to make what land they have for it far more efficient, but though that would lead to more food, where do the other farmers go? Cities are hardly a good option, since it would take a while for the economies to go anywhere, it would just degrade into slums. Education is only as useful as the population makes of it. The unfortunate tendency is that people look at these problems from a Western perspective, rather than looking at it as something entirely unique. I sincerely hope those problems can be resolved, but it is going to be harder than most people realize.

If you want to focus on the Middle East (a loose term at best since it includes North African states as far west as Morocco, but nobody wished to use the term 'Muslim World' in a political context), it mostly boils down to religious unrest and a lack of farming land, as well as a lack of resources other than oil. The best bet I would think would be to make the jump to a service based economy, but I don't pretend to be an expert on this. Many of the problems previously discussed also apply here. I hesitate to say much more about it.

America has had an advantage in 3 areas, that very few other states has ever had.
1.) A very strong economy
2.) A strong military
3.) Ability to feed itself.

#3 is something oft looked over, but it is a crucial element. The US does produce enough food to feed everybody, but the problem has always been the distribution and pricing. Americans also get sick of seeing their charitable donations rot or get stolen. However, the world's carrying capacity is getting dangerously close. If everyone was producing as much food as they could with maximum efficiency, the world would be able to support a little over 9 billion people. This delves further into demographic theory of demographic transition vs. neo-Malthusianism, so I think I best stop here :sheep:

To those who actually read the whole thing, congrats:p I appreciate any criticism of course as I am sure I have overstretched what learning and understanding I have.

A few additions: All I was seeking to do here was extend the conversation from 'USA, USA!', and 'Amerika is teh suxxorz!1!/ Death to Bush', etc., to a broader understanding of the world situation. Even this is just a cliff notes version of an extremely small portion of what is going on. Books have been written on small portions of what I've said. I strayed quite a bit from my original statements as I went on, maybe I'll try to bring them together later. I didn't talk much about the mideast because I only got so far in my education, and I was not able to study the region more closely. I don't want to go in depth into something I know next to nothing about(though that doesn't stop most Americans:p). Most of this comes from Political Geography, but some cultural/economic/and physical geography as well.

Well Goku, I don't agree that Russia would be the only one able to stand against US. In terms of military power, now China would be a really tough opponent. Their project are successful, by all means. Including smart ammunition, heavy armor, transport, artillery, naval warfare [well, except for Maanshan maybe, that's not their own, nothing more than La Fayette - French in licence], etc, to airborne [Just for example, Chengdu is almost finished, and J-15 is already on drawing boards. They have contract with and a BIG support of Mikojan Gurievitch bureau, and also all the latest technology form 1.44 project. That's supposed to be the most advanced 5th generation fighter, we're talking about! Will be able to match JSF or Berkut anytime]. Not to mention that half of the best Russian armament is being built there in licence. Anyhow. The new power is rising.

And believe me. I know what I'm talking about. :) now, this is the foundation of my education...

The main question with China I think is stability. Their population is growing at a slower rate now. but a lot of damage has been been done both in trying to correct it and in trying to exploit it. The One Child Policy. for example, is taking its toll. The favor towards male children has led to an enormous surplus male population with a very small female population. There have been reports of the younger males being more rambunctious and not listening to teachers in the classroom, and kidnappings of girls in the millions in order for families to provide their son with wives. It is also important for the son's parents because when their son is married they are the ones who gets to live with the couple and be supported by them. Since the daughter's family gets nothing they no doubt feel that it makes little difference whether they kidnap a girl or not. A highly discontented young male population is potentially a recipe for violence. The best the government can hope to do is draft them early into the military and hope to reprogram them there. It is also an element of economics that the larger the rise in an economy, the harder the fall. For most of the 20th century the US government has been trying to restrain runaway growth in order to lessen the effects of the inevitable dip in the cycle. To what extent China has been able to do this is uncertain.

China also instituted other draconian policies such as sterilizing those they considered 'slow witted' or mentally disabled. The thought behind it being that they did not want these people to have families, because then the government would have to provide for them as well. Something that can be devastating for families if this is done to their only son under the current rules, because they may not be provided for when they reach old age. I also find it hard to look well upon a country that sanctions murder of its own government officials. The reason for the huge build up in their military is as much to ensure their populace stays in line out of fear as much as it is to rival the US.

:D I really don't have a clue about the whole social background... That's your domain as far as I can see. Thanks for the explanation. :) I'm just an expert for warfare. And review things that I studied and understand. That means WEAPONS, WEAPONS and... well, WEAPONS. And from this point of view China is catching on pretty fast. And already belongs to the top.

Quote

Originally posted by Urd♥sake (view)
I wanna go to egypt (!!!) and Japan (!!) and India :P
I'm dutch, so i'm from the netherlands (you know small country in europe, don't know if anyone knows it?) and personally I think we almost don't have anything to do with america! I mean we get alot of people from other countries (which is kind of a big problem) but their all from Irak and Istanbul and stuff..

and just europe... doesn't have much from america I think and certainly not the netherlands.holland
Our little country is always proud to be neutral and everything and we don't take many other countries as an example..

As someone who lives in Belgium, I kinda disagree. I mean, of course you know your country best (duh), but from what I've noticed, Holland and Belgium have become more and more Americanized.
Of course this isn't like some other countries or cultures. I mean, like you said, both of our countries have prided themselves in their neutrality, and while the Benelux is tiny, we're definetly something to take notice of. Also, during the Bush administration, the general dislike of America has risen immensely in Europe. Belgium especially, because we were forced to allow American troops to transport weapons through our harbor. This is a small incident in a way, but still.
I know I've kinda ignored the rest of the discussion now - so sorry - but I really wanted to respond to this.


Nighthawk: you're very correct about the immigration issue. Personally I have little problems with immigrants (although I do think they should be more integrated - the integration of some cultural immigrants is shockingly non-existant). I don't forsee issues - I know we already have them.

Europe and the US are actually experiencing similar immigration patterns at the moment. They both have large numbers entering from less developed countries and are exploiting them for cheaper labor. Problem for Europe is that they have not experienced immigration nearly as much as emigration until recently. It is not as common in Europe to permit outside groups from coming in (I am using very broad and general terms, so don't take it too literally), as it is in the US. Some have not quite shifted their mentality enough and look at the immigrants as more of a threat, when all they are trying to do is make a better life for themselves. Are all of them seeking to do that? Not always. Why is getting a lot of people from other countries a big problem. I guess it is hard for me to wrap my mind around because of my experience here. In order for Europe to deal with its immigration 'problem' the only (good) solution would be to improve the situations of the countries where most immigrants are coming from. The fact that Europe as a whole is the largest concentration of wealthy nations in the world, and the much freer interconnectivity of the continent through the EU, makes it a very appealing option to find work. If you view this as a problem you can either sabotage your own continent to make it less appealing and remove the pull factor, or solve some of the mess Europe created in Africa and the Middle East to reduce the push factor.

It bugs me mostly because people in my environment - as in, my relatives and family - take great offense in the attitude of some of the immigrants, while at the same time we all know and care for immigrants who do indeed "live as they should".
I am all about helping resolve the messy situations in Africa and the Middle East - but this is an international problem, and I do not think that most of the blame lies with Europe (of course, a lot of it does, but I'm someone who believes that people help create their own misfortunes). I think the world needs to realise that we can not fix things on our own. Humans quarrel between themselves which makes us lose whatever time we have to help eachother and the planet.

Despite all the "hubbub" about Europe being accepting and such, we're rusted solid when it comes to some things. A change of mentality concerning immigrants make take longer than we can afford.

If only they help the immigrants instead of chasing them, they can have a better control of delinquents and all that stuff.

Once I talked with a person that tried to cross the border to u.s. but he failed (more than 3 times) and he told me that something strange happens there because the police, lets say that the "dont see" the first half of the immigrant groups so they can pass without problems, but the other half........ well you can imagine.

Actually, the issue in my country is that the government does too much to help them. I know this may sound weird, but hear me out.

The group of immigrants I'm referring to now uses the words "immigrant" and "racist" as a shield. They play a victim-role, calling everyone who does not agree with their plans a racist. Because of that they get "upped" on lists concerning social and financial aid, passing by local residents who are in equal need of the offered help. That is why there is so much protest and hubbub against that particular group of immigrants.
On another note, the youngsters are actually the biggest issue, and even their parents agree to that. They leave their country and suddenly live in a place where they have freedom and rights gallore, and they don't know how to deal with it. Western woman are sluts and whores (pardon the language) because they wear tank tops and skirts, and they chase us mercilessly. "No" is not a word they understand. The parents and community leaders try to organize things in their town centers to keep the kids off of the streets, but it's so much more easy to run amock than to put an effort into something.
Those are the main issues, really. Sorry for ranting, so - it's not exactly something you all can do anything about, but it angers and saddens me - but I tend to take the weight of the world on my shoulders.

I think that's so odd. I have no idea what the requirements are for people to live in Belgium, other than having a steady job. Just being thrown out of the country, that must be so afwul.

Reiyuka, you can say 'Muslim' here, you won't get shot. Again, I see Europe and the US having similar immigration issues at the moment, and neither is handling things too well. (including the immigrants themselves, legal or otherwise). One thing to understand economically is that the US and Europe have very powerful economies and are near less developed countries (LDCs). When you add in greater freedom in how that money is used along with a much higher potential for getting a decent paying job, these regions have become increasingly desirable.

Currently Mexico sends in the largest immigrant population, a huge portion of which is unaccounted for. Most people view them as either day laborers, farm hands, or household workers, but that isn't exactly fair. Some Americans should keep in mind that Southern Italian and Polish immigrants were in much the same role 50+ years ago. There were also gang realted problems associated with these groups, but they have for the most part moved on from that. At some point the immigration wave from Mexico will die down, and hopefully there will be fewer issues as well. The meeting of more money and increased freedom to use it can often lead to problems for those who don't know how to use it. I'd cite specific examples, but I only have so much time to write this:sheep: Gangs more often than not rise from new immigrant communities and low income households from a sense of self protection, though their actions are hardly ever so noble. Southern California has a huge gang problem from the combination of several large immigrant groups trying to stick together, and an often large wealth disparity. Most people don't seem to know about the Turkish gangs that were especially prevelant in the 1980s, and their ongoing turf wars with the Mexican gangs.

Among other issues of illegal immigration are of course taxes. Since illegals are paid under the table, they are not tracked by the IRS and do not pay income tax. However, they send their kids to school, take advantage of our medical system, and those that do contribute to the gang problem (not all do, or even a majority, and it is both incorrect and insensitive to assume otherwise) add to the strain on our fire and police departments. This makes this segment of the population a complete tax drain. However, their children do often grow up and are citizens by default, allowing them to contribute to public services. Their is also a rift between Mexican immigrants who went through the process to become legal residents, and the illegals they have come to resent. While their reasons for doing so are certainly understandable, the labor market in the US is not unlimited, and is feeling some of the strain. I'd do a push/pull factor analysis, but I doubt anyone is interested.

I can not speak of Europe's immigration in any great detail, for I admit I have not studied it closely. However, there certainly are issues that bear some resemblance. Europe has been constantly fragmenting form a few empires to several smaller states that are largely homogeneous, and has experienced far more emigration than immigration for the past couple hundred years due to colonization, and seeking different opportunities abroad. Immigration at it's current scale is a fairly recent phenomena for Europe (feel free to correct me here, like I said I am not well versed in this), and there seems to be some issues with the slight fracturing of homogeny, notably in Germany with the Turks. Like the US, Europe has gotten a bit fat and happy thanks to labor unions and the like, and disdain at working long hours for substandard pay. The problem being that some of these types of jobs are necessary in order for any state to keep up with the global economy. In steps immigrants from LDCs looking for opportunity, and willing to work for less than most Europeans, since in most cases their income is sometimes more than tripled. Granted not all immigrants from these countries are poor, so I'm not trying to paint to broad a stroke here.

As far as social services go, it is to be expected. Many have found the value of playing the 'victim' in order to increase the odds of receiving aid. This is not a strictly European problem. The kids also know that the police are not going to take any serious measures to stop them, and so are further encouraged. This creates a serious dilemma between public safety and personal freedom that many in the States know all to well. Gang issues are not easy to solve and nearly impossible to root out. It is hard to say that those born of low income and poverty can be solved through economic aid since class hatred is often exacerbated by participation in such gangs. Some are also just bored suburban kids with nothing better to do. These are a little more easily strong armed, but setting up publicly run activities for them is more likely to earn their ire than anything. Racial tensions also play huge roles in many gang related issues, especially in areas that see many different immigration groups coming in, and there really isn't any true solution for this.

I could go on longer, but I doubt anyone read past paragraph one.

....wow...... Nighthawk8799 i read all those & im glad i read'em & all the others^^.